Posted by: Soh


Here is the sixth series of a collection of early forum discussions between I, Thusness, and a few others.

Also see: Early Forum Posts by Thusness, Part 2 of Early Forum Posts by Thusness, Part 3 of Early Forum Posts by Thusness, Early Conversations Part 4,
Early Conversations Part 5

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    • Hi AEN,

      It is a a good summary attempted to link non-dual experience (enlightenment) to the basic teachings of Buddha -- the dharma seals, 5 aggregates, 18 dhatus, dependent origination and emptiness nature. Many tend to ignore the basics and are easily fascinated by the ‘deeper and more profound’ teachings of Buddhism. This is a bad habit and this attitude also blinds us from experiencing the profundity of Buddha’s wisdom.

      The experience of enlightenment (non-duality) is found all over the place in the most basic teachings of Buddha. In fact the basic is most significant. Anyone that experienced non-duality will realize the precise description when Buddha taught the 5 aggregates. With the teaching of anatta of the 5 aggregates Buddha is, in truth, conveying an experience of how enlightenment is like while propensity is still in action taking the form of mental formation; but even with the presence of mental formation and perceptions, that does not make the experience of non-duality any less valuable. Subsequent stages of non-dual experience requires the freeing of the mental-construct-superimposition on ‘what is’. It turns out that when a non-dualist is thoroughly free from mental construction and the habitual tendency to divide wholeness, he is undergoing an experiential shift from seeing reality as the 5 aggregates into the raw experience of 18 dhatus. This ultimate experience of purity also reveals that Consciousness is indeed, the All.

      You spoke of the DO of all phenomenon, any idea how it helps and what role it plays in the experience of non-duality? Why Buddha placed such importance in it? Smile
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    • Originally posted by january:
      Stevenson published only for the academic and scientific community, and his over 200 articles and several books—densely packed with research details and academic argument—are in places difficult for the average reader to follow. His research, over 3,000 study cases, provides evidence suggestive of reincarnation,[b]though he himself was always careful to refer to them as "cases suggestive of reincarnation" or "cases of the reincarnation type." [8]

      Professor Stevenson himself recognized a problem with his argument for reincarnation: the absence of any evidence of a physical process by which a personality could survive death and travel to another body.[9] Further, some have questioned his objectivity in drawing conclusions from his research.
      [/b]
      The difference is that although Dr. Stevenson is academically qualified, he is also well aware of the limitations of the scientific method. He offered careful
      and respectful cases that suggest the possibility of reincarnation and tried to be as unbiased as possible; but many that are neither qualified academically nor scientifically just dismissed them outright. How sad and ignorant. I write out of my respect for him so that his effort will not be wasted and distorted, you need not reply.
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    • Originally posted by longchen:
      Hello People,

      I think karma really exist.

      Being able to trace the events into past lives, allows me to see the causes of my current conditions and difficulties. For example, I can see who my wife is in a previous life and why she is associated with me in this life. I also know certain people that i encounters in this life and how are they linked to me in previous life.

      Sometimes, I really regret being so foolish in the past. Embarassed They are really giving me alot of current life obstacles.

      I think the precepts laid down by Buddha is a super foresight of his. The precepts can prevent one from getting negative consequences. However I think, at times, karma can also be acrued by being swept by life events and tides. Karma is indeed an extremely complex dynamics.

      Just a sharing.

      Buddha's wisdom is profound.
      Indeed Longchen,

      When we practice, we will realise the depth of Buddha's precision in the description of non-dual experiences and the workings of karma. Blessed are those that can have authentic experiences to verify Buddha's words,. Be steadfast in your practice and be strong even when there is setback. Good Luck! Smile

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    • Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
      Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

      No amount of positive thinking can make you be liberated at all times. Liberation comes from seeing our true nature. Even if you are a person with a v care-free, take-it-easy kind of perspective, you cannot therefore by freed from all distresses and the pain of sickness, death, etc.

      In Buddhism, there are 8 kinds of distresses that we go through. See http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol4no1a.htm

      The fundamental point here is that, without liberating from the basic dualistic assumption of subject-object, you will always be trapped in tanha (desire), and the 2nd noble truth states that tanha (desire) causes suffering (such as lack, fear, anxiety, and dissatisfaction, etc).

      What kinds of desires? There are three kinds. Desire for sense pleasure (kama tanha), desire to become (bhava tanha) and desire to get rid of (vibhava tanha).

      The problem is that when we desire something, lets say sense pleasure, the more we seek, the wider we split the subject and the object (and as you know there really is no subject apart from object), the more painful and dissatisfactory it is. We then become discontent with life as it is, we cannot see that what is arising now is already self-perfected as it is, we cannot see that all there is is simply conditioned arising -- and a perfect expression of our primordial nature, our Buddha Nature.

      Similarly, if something unpleasurable arises, we try to widen the gap between subject and object, we try to shut off, manipulate, get rid of the undesired object from a phantom subject (you) which will not work because there is really no such thing as a subject-object split. There only is the universe manifesting as it is in itself, conditioned arising, a mere happening that happens to no-one. Whatever arises at that moment, is as it is. If pain arises, it is not 'your pain' from 'your body'. The universe is pain and it is happening to no one because there is no self apart from manifestation.

      And the problem of clinging to a desired object then becomes that it is ultimately impermanent, and there is no way that a 'subject' (which never existed) can grasp onto the 'object', since it is empty and ungraspable (utterly transient and ephemeral), being merely only conditioned arising, the aggregation of causes and conditions, and having no reality apart from it.

      If you see a colourful flower and a dog and an insect too sees it, you and the dog and the ant are not going to see the same things. The dog is only going to see black and white. Why? Because all there is is conditioned arising, merely the aggregation of causes and conditions, having no reality apart from it! Whatever arises is the whole universe manifesting as that moment. The nature of the flower is Empty.

      If we can understand the the nature of the object we are seeking is in essence empty of any inherent existence, being merely conditioned arising, and that the subject-object relationship is false, there will be complete resting and contentment in the moment of arising. You will not fall under the false dualistic relationship of a 'subject' trying to manipulate the 'external universe', trying to get away from or stop/manipulate what is presently arising, trying to get something better than what is here, trying to shut off yourself from the world, etc.

      It is seen that all there is is conditioned arising -- that what you are is simply the scenery, sound of bird chirping, sound of keyboard typing, words appearing on the screen.. That is your nature -- conditioned arising that is empty of any fixed forms, shapes, attributes, etc. Emptiness that has a luminous heart giving rise to infinite potentiality.

      There are lots of various descriptions of our Buddha Nature -- all pervading, brighter than a thousand suns, mirror-like, indestructible. And all conditioned arising is an expression of the unconditioned Buddha Nature. All that is arising is the Buddha. They are all your pristine awareness at that moment with its nature empty -- never the same and never remain (having no existence and reality apart from conditioned arising), nothing apart from the crystal clear manifestation of appearances. Completely and fully real and gone.

      A bird is chirping happily outside... just that sound. The whole universe is just that sound. Completely real, but never staying... gone as it arises. Merely a conditioned manifestation that is empty.

      Just like patterns of clouds appearing in the sky -- they are all conditioned arising.

      ...We call it weather, but what is it really? Wind. Rain. Clouds slowly parting. Not the words spoken about it, but just this darkening, blowing, pounding and wetting, and then lightening up, blue sky appearing amid darkness, and sunshine sparkling on wet grasses and leaves. In a little while there'll be frost, snow and ice covers. And then warming again, melting, oozing water everywhere. On an early spring day the dirt road sparkles with streams of wet silver. So—what is weather other than this incessant change of earthly conditions and all the human thoughts, feelings and undertakings influenced by it? Like and dislike. Depression and elation. Creation and destruction. An ongoing, ever-changing stream of happenings abiding nowhere. No real entity weather exists anywhere except in thinking and talking about it....

      ...Now, is there such an entity as me or I? Or is it just like the weather—an ongoing, ever-changing stream of ideas, images, memories, projections, likes and dislikes, creation and destruction, that thought keeps calling I, me, Toni, and thereby solidifying what is evanescent?...

      ...How are we to come upon the truth if separateness is taken so much for granted, feels so commonsense?
      The difficulty is not insurmountable. Wholeness, our true being, is here all the time, like the sun behind the clouds. Light is here in spite of cloud cover.
      What makes up the clouds?... (see Emptiness and No-Self)

      All gain and loss is also simply that -- conditioned arising. The sense of a 'controller' is let go of, no 'self' is in control. This does not mean we must not exert effort to get good exam results (we must exert our fullest effort), it just means that gain and loss must be seen as conditioned arising.

      [/url]
      You summarized very well. Smile

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    • Originally posted by JonLS:
      It's 5am, I've just awoken out of a nightmare and got up out of bed to post this while it's still fresh in my experience, in my memory.

      In the nightmare I'm walking down some stairs with a female beside me, we start going around the corner, when suddenly, I see the hands and fingers of the female severed from her body and fall to the ground. I don't see what happened or who did it, but instinct has me turning around and going in the opposite direction. I get out of the stairwell and am in the hall when I pass some more stairs and I notice a person coming down those stairs with a large razor-sharp blade in his hand. I don't stop, I keep walking AWAY from this person. But suddenly the dream has turned really intense and this wakes me up.

      This is very much like what happened to me in real life. Life was so difficult, so intense, there was so much suffering from all the thoughts I was having that I was "forced" to wake up. But it was not due to a psycho with a knife, it was due to my own thoughts of growing old, getting sick and dying. This is what forced me out of the dream.

      But I'd like to get back to the exact moment when I woke up out of the dream. Because at that very instant, I had a major insight. I realized fully that the female in the stairwell, the stairwell itself, and myself (in the dream) arose within me, within the dream. I was the consciousness in which all of this dream was taking place.

      Of course it wasn't difficult to "see" that what I was, was also, the consciousness in which all of this so called life is arising also. Even all the gurus and their sites that I frequent on the internet, all are arising from within me. It was also immediately clear that the 3 states, dreaming, waking, sleeping, all arose within me also.

      What is also understood is that you are going to read and take this in at an intellectual level, but what happened upon my "awakening" from the dream was not at the intellectual level. It was much deeper than that. It was at the level of insight, which involves my whole being.

      But the absolute point of this post has to be and remains who or what I am. I am the consciousness in which this post is arising. I am the consciousness that is typing and reading this post.
      Consciousness also wants us to realise the process of getting old, sick and death and why the one has become the many. Change and manifestation are the all, therefore Consciousness are has always been the all. The nature is empty. Mr. Green
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    • Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
      There is really quite some interesting discussions going on lately in there.
      I do not know what to say. Neutral
      Just want to kok ur head until it burst!
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    • Originally posted by paperflower:
      sorry i'm out of topic here...
      i haven't been sitting-meditating for awhile and since i find that i'm exhausted with piles of work and chores, i took an alternative route which is meditating in daily living.
      Hi Paperflower,

      With all our will and effort, we are unable to get our mind to rest. But when we are tired, we let go and rest naturally. Tiredness and let go if viewed correctly are one. So when Buddha said "Life is suffering", it is a great wisdom -- nothing pessimistic or negative. Our mind filter very quickly and we may missed the 'great condition' for letting go to arise. So treasure this "exhausted", it can convey very valuable message in time to come. my 2 cents. Smile

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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:


If you see a colourful flower and a dog and an insect too sees it, you and the dog and the ant are not going to see the same things. The dog is only going to see black and white. Why? Because the nature of the flower is Empty -- there is no graspable 'Essence of Flower' or the 'Flowerness of the Flower' -- Flower is empty of any inherent existence, being only conditioned arising, merely the aggregation of causes and conditions, and having no reality apart from it!
This is refining the non-dual experience with the emptiness nature of our awareness from a Buddhist perspective. It will reduce the ‘grasping’ of self significantly if experienced intuitively. That said, we should also bear in mind that the purpose of expounding the emptiness nature of any arising is to realize that the ‘transients’ are really our very Buddha nature. Ultimately ‘emptiness’ is still a ‘raft’ that must be discarded. Practice must enable us to experience the ‘the most real of the appearances’ -- the full vivid aliveness yet empty at that moment. This is the luminous aspect of practice.

Just to illustrate a little on the example of 'flowerness':

There is no ‘the flowerness’ seen by a dog, an insect or us. ‘The flowerness’ is an illusion that does not stay even for a moment, merely an aggregate of causes and conditions. Analogous to the example of ‘flowerness’, there is no ‘selfness’ serving as a background witnessing either -- pristine awareness is not the witnessing background. Rather, the entire whole of the moment of manifestation is our pristine awareness; lucidly clear, yet empty of inherent existence. This the way of ‘seeing’ the one as many, the observer and the observed are one and the same. This is also the meaning of formlessness and attribute-less of our nature.

How does a dualistic mind see it?
A dualistic mind understands differently. A mind that is dualistic is quick to objectify ‘formlessness and atribute-less’ into an empty-invisible-void entity observing transients manifestation. It ‘dualifies’ form from formlessness and attempts to separate from itself. This is not ‘I’, ‘I’ am the changeless and perfect stillness behind the transients appearances. Therefore ‘impersonality’ appears cold and lifeless. But this is not the case for a non-dual practitioner in Buddhism. For him/her, the ‘formlessness and attribute-less’ is vividly alive, full of colors and sounds. ‘Formlessness’ is not understood apart from ‘Forms’ – the ‘form of formlessness’, the texture and fabric of awareness. They are one and the same.

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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

All gain and loss is also simply that -- conditioned arising. The sense of a 'controller' is let go of, no 'self' is in control. This does not mean we must not exert effort to get good exam results (we must exert our fullest effort), it just means that gain and loss must be seen as conditioned arising.
Once the sense of self is dissolved, there is totality of action and practice is about this totality in action. There is no question of effort; the only effort comes from the sense of ‘self’. When ‘non-dual and empty’ is fully experienced in our cells and flow in our blood like how dualistic-propensities have so deeply tainted the 5 aggregates, action becomes effortless.



Practice is about losing oneself and all merely happens as if 'you' never existed. One must eventually undergo a complete psychological death, and be completely dead in the living. As the saying goes -- die before you die. At that moment, deep dreamless sleep where the self completely subsides, is no longer different from conscious state. There is no more attachment, no more unwillingness and grasping to the need to 'exist' consciously. One requires fearlessness to dissolve this habit of 'self-preservation'... and when that is done, samatha and insight becomes one.
What will this give rise? Smile

----------------------------
    • It's okie. U can passed it to Isis...Just bought 5 books by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. Smile
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    • Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
      Just saw something similar by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, in Advice On Presence And Awareness

      ...For this reason Padma Sambhava said: 'the mind is the creator of Samsara and of Nirvana. Outside the mind there exists neither Samsara nor Nirvana. 'Having thus established that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is the mind, it follows that all that seems concrete in the world, and all the seeming solidity of beings themselves, is nothing but an illusory vision of one's own mind.

      Just as a person who has a 'bile' disease sees a shell as being yellow even if one can see objectively that that is not its true color, so in just the same way, as a result of the particular karmic causes of sentient beings, the various illusory visions manifest. Thus, if one were to meet a being of each of the six states of existence on the bank of the same river, they would not see that river in the same way, since they each would have different karmic causes. The beings of the hot hells would see the river as fire; those of the cold hells would see it as ice; beings of the hungry ghost realm would see the river as blood and pus; aquatic animals would see it as an environment to live in; human beings would see the river as water to drink; while the demi-gods would see it as weapons, and the gods as nectar. This shows that in reality nothing exists as concrete and objective. Therefore, understanding that the root of Samsara is truly the mind, one should set out to pull up the root. Recognizing that the mind itself is the essence of Enlightenment one attains liberation. Thus, being aware that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is only the mind, one takes the decision to practice....
      Reality here refers to phenomena (experiential reality) and in religious parlance, they are referred to as forms, maya or appearances. When we talk about 'sound', we are not refering to the physical processes of how the air molecules hit our ear drums. It is the sudden, out of nowhere, the magical birth of ‘sound’ that we are exploring. This becomes more obvious when we inquire into sight -- our most powerful sense. The question of how all those inverted images in our retina are able to give rise to the sensation of an 'external' world that is so vividly real, full of colors and motion is puzzling. Maya is as amazing as our buddha nature... Mr. Green
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    • Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
      All gain and loss is also simply that -- conditioned arising. The sense of a 'controller' is let go of, no 'self' is in control. This does not mean we must not exert effort to get good exam results (we must exert our fullest effort), it just means that gain and loss must be seen as conditioned arising.
      The understanding 'of arising as yuan' must be factored to all aspects of our lives. Applying this insight to the six stages of my experiences, you must see them not as indications of stages at all. There are no higher or lower stages, all merely serves as conditions for ‘new insight’ to arise. A practitioner may start from training himself to ‘witness’ the empty nature of phenomena (stage 6) yet still having a clear distinction of observer and observed being dual; but the gradual loosening of ‘solidity’ of all internal or external phenomena having no inherent existence will slowly leads to the non-dual experience.
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    • Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
      A bird is chirping happily outside... just that sound. The whole universe is just that sound. Completely real, but never staying... gone as it arises. Merely a conditioned manifestation that is empty.

      In reality, there only is the universe manifesting as it is in itself, conditioned arising, a mere happening that happens to no-one. Whatever arises at that moment, is as it is. If pain arises, it is not 'your pain' from 'your body'. The universe is pain and it is happening to no one because there is no self apart from manifestation.
      An extra point:

      Here the highlight must not only be the empty nature of ‘sound’ alone, that luminosity as ‘sound’ must similarly be emphasized. When we stripped-off the symbolic representation of ‘bird’, ‘chirping’, ‘outside’, ‘eyes-organ’, ‘ears-organs’, ‘senate reality’ and merely experience in bare, this is the meditative state of intuitively knowing that quality of being luminous in oneness. Oneness as there is nothing to divide when devoid of these symbolic layering. The depth of the crystal clarity of that pure experience – ‘chirping’ is not what language can convey. The point here is not to bring about a scientific study on the topic of qualia but to have a direct feel of the full absorption in the delight of that clear-luminosity of ‘sound’. It is the ‘depth and degree’ of absorptive-clarity yet non-staying that is most important; not the symbolic understanding of meanings.

      It may be a good prompt at this juncture to ask "Is remaining ‘in the mode that is free of symbols’ the only way to experience non-duality?"


--------------

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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
From the 'notes' section of The Crystal and the Way of Light by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche:

[b]"This is the self-liberation totally free from both action and reaction (rang-grol), which takes place in the very moment that any experience arises: whatever arises liberates itself as it arises, in the same way that a drawing made on water immediately disappears of its own accord. Neither an intentional action of the subject (as in Cherdrol), nor a spontaneous reaction of the subject (as in Shadrol), is required here.

Whatever arises liberates itself of itself, without the need for anyone to do anything to liberate it. The string never begins to be tied up; voidness and appearances manifest coincidently. The practitioner is like the mirror which can freely reflect whatever presents itself, without the reflections in it either sticking to it or leaving any trace in it; the reflected image liberates in the very moment that it appears.

Since there is no longer a mental subject that can be harmed by whatever manifests, it is said that at this stage the passions and whatever may arise are like a thief in an empty house.

When one manifests this ultimate capacity for self-liberation, this is the realization of the Tregchod (khregs-chod). This mode of capacity of liberation, illustrated with the image of a 'thief in an empty house', is indicated in many Dzogchen texts by teh words 'namtok penme nomedu drolwa' (rnam-rtog phan-med gnod-med-du grol-ba)"
[/b]
I like this quote very much and with all due respect to Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, I will do a slight modification to the description for this self-liberated aspect of non-dual experience. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche may want readers to see other angles. So the modification is simply to mantain the 'essence' of what I am trying to convey, for tracking purpose. Smile

"Whatever arises liberates itself of itself, without the need for anyone to do anything to liberate it. The string never begins to be tied up; voidness and appearances manifest coincidently." The practitioner realises the nature of awareness as just so, manifestation as itself luminous (the dust being the mirror itself) and subsides instantly as it arises (self-luminous and empty).
The phenomena liberates at the very moment it appears. This is the natural state of what is.
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    • It's okie. U can passed it to Isis...Just bought 5 books by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. Smile
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    • Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
      Just saw something similar by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, in Advice On Presence And Awareness

      ...For this reason Padma Sambhava said: 'the mind is the creator of Samsara and of Nirvana. Outside the mind there exists neither Samsara nor Nirvana. 'Having thus established that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is the mind, it follows that all that seems concrete in the world, and all the seeming solidity of beings themselves, is nothing but an illusory vision of one's own mind.

      Just as a person who has a 'bile' disease sees a shell as being yellow even if one can see objectively that that is not its true color, so in just the same way, as a result of the particular karmic causes of sentient beings, the various illusory visions manifest. Thus, if one were to meet a being of each of the six states of existence on the bank of the same river, they would not see that river in the same way, since they each would have different karmic causes. The beings of the hot hells would see the river as fire; those of the cold hells would see it as ice; beings of the hungry ghost realm would see the river as blood and pus; aquatic animals would see it as an environment to live in; human beings would see the river as water to drink; while the demi-gods would see it as weapons, and the gods as nectar. This shows that in reality nothing exists as concrete and objective. Therefore, understanding that the root of Samsara is truly the mind, one should set out to pull up the root. Recognizing that the mind itself is the essence of Enlightenment one attains liberation. Thus, being aware that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is only the mind, one takes the decision to practice....
      Reality here refers to phenomena (experiential reality) and in religious parlance, they are referred to as forms, maya or appearances. When we talk about 'sound', we are not refering to the physical processes of how the air molecules hit our ear drums. It is the sudden, out of nowhere, the magical birth of ‘sound’ that we are exploring. This becomes more obvious when we inquire into sight -- our most powerful sense. The question of how all those inverted images in our retina are able to give rise to the sensation of an 'external' world that is so vividly real, full of colors and motion is puzzling. Maya is as amazing as our buddha nature... Mr. Green
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    • Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
      All gain and loss is also simply that -- conditioned arising. The sense of a 'controller' is let go of, no 'self' is in control. This does not mean we must not exert effort to get good exam results (we must exert our fullest effort), it just means that gain and loss must be seen as conditioned arising.
      The understanding 'of arising as yuan' must be factored to all aspects of our lives. Applying this insight to the six stages of my experiences, you must see them not as indications of stages at all. There are no higher or lower stages, all merely serves as conditions for ‘new insight’ to arise. A practitioner may start from training himself to ‘witness’ the empty nature of phenomena (stage 6) yet still having a clear distinction of observer and observed being dual; but the gradual loosening of ‘solidity’ of all internal or external phenomena having no inherent existence will slowly leads to the non-dual experience.
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    • Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
      A bird is chirping happily outside... just that sound. The whole universe is just that sound. Completely real, but never staying... gone as it arises. Merely a conditioned manifestation that is empty.

      In reality, there only is the universe manifesting as it is in itself, conditioned arising, a mere happening that happens to no-one. Whatever arises at that moment, is as it is. If pain arises, it is not 'your pain' from 'your body'. The universe is pain and it is happening to no one because there is no self apart from manifestation.
      An extra point:

      Here the highlight must not only be the empty nature of ‘sound’ alone, that luminosity as ‘sound’ must similarly be emphasized. When we stripped-off the symbolic representation of ‘bird’, ‘chirping’, ‘outside’, ‘eyes-organ’, ‘ears-organs’, ‘senate reality’ and merely experience in bare, this is the meditative state of intuitively knowing that quality of being luminous in oneness. Oneness as there is nothing to divide when devoid of these symbolic layering. The depth of the crystal clarity of that pure experience – ‘chirping’ is not what language can convey. The point here is not to bring about a scientific study on the topic of qualia but to have a direct feel of the full absorption in the delight of that clear-luminosity of ‘sound’. It is the ‘depth and degree’ of absorptive-clarity yet non-staying that is most important; not the symbolic understand of meanings.

      It may be a good prompt at this juncture to ask "Is remaining ‘in the mode that is free of symbols’ the only way to experience non-duality?"

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      All of our forummer Longchen's articles (http://www.dreamdatum.com/articles-path.html) are of especially good quality and very well written especially that it's coming from a sincere practitioner willing to share his insights gained from his practice.

      He was just discussing about maintaining non-duality while engaging in conversation when I met him for lunch days ago in school, and which he later wrote this (followed by two other articles "Are we supposed to get rid of unwholesome thoughts?" and "The misconception surrounding Transcendental Nonduality"):

      http://www.dreamdatum.com/nondual-conversation.html

      Non-dual Conversation

      Is it possible for one to maintain non-dual while having a conversation with another person? This is something that I am learning to do. From my few experiences, yes it is possible. But it is quite a challenge. And at as of this writing, I am very unstable at this.

      There is really no method of how this can be done. It is really a matter of discovering something and entering into the state without volition.

      I will state what happens when non-dual conversation is taking place. The following features are present when having a non-dual conversation:

      1. No sense of talking to someone outside of oneself. All this is happening within the same space without subject-object division.

      2. No sense of my body talking to another body. This has got to do with no sense of ownership of body. At this point, the sense of owning the physical body is absent. In addition to that, there is also no sense of the sound and sight of another body as being separated from all that is happening at the moment. This is different from no 'I' in the sense that it now encompasses 'no mine' or 'no ownership'.

      3. Because of the absence of self-others demarcation, conversation occurs without the usual mode of trying to get some kind of response, reaction or effect from the other party. At my current stage, I did notice a slight grasping that is being used to translate sound into meanings. This is unlike the total deconstruction that occurs with the 'powering down' of perception.

      OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.

      For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.

      ------------------------

      http://www.dreamdatum.com/thought-detach.html

      Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts?

      This article is related to a common misconception with regards to spiritual practice. Many spiritual teachings say that one must get rid of unwholesome stuffs in one's life. So does that include getting rid of unwholesome thoughts that one is having.

      Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts? Before we can answer this question, we must first ask..."Can the self or 'I' get rid of thoughts that are deemed as unwholesome?" The answer to the latter question is a NO.

      As already mentioned and explained here, the sense of self or 'I' is not the doer of action. As much as this 'sense of self' desires, it simply has no power over the arising and ceasing of thoughts. Thoughts, are for most part, related to the functioning of memory. Because of that, thoughts and memory cannot be removed by will.

      So, if thoughts cannot be stopped from arising using volition, are we powerless with regards to its influences. No.

      While thoughts cannot be stopped, the attachment or aversion to them can be diminished with training. Both attachments and aversions are types of grasping.

      So to be precise, during spiritual practice, we are not supposed to try to stop unwholesome thoughts from arising. This will prove to be ineffective and all we get will be more frustrations. What we can do, is to let go of the grasping to the thoughts. There is an energetic difference between the two.

      About this letting go, it is really a gentle process and cannot be forced. Excessive forcing re-enforces the arising of 'sense of self' and ineffective grasping kicks into action again.

      Often, the thoughts that arised are in conditioned response to what is being perceived by the senses. The speed of the arisal of the thought often is very fast. Because there is a perception, which is followed rapidly by the conditioned thought, the conditioned reaction(grasping) to the thought often is almost immediate. The rapid change that occur within this short span of duration is what makes 'recognising' the grasping from the perception and thoughts difficult.

      OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.

      For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.

      These articles are parts of a series of spiritual realisation articles.

      ----------------------------
      http://www.dreamdatum.com/nondual-misinfo.html

      (just updated)

      The misconceptions surrounding Transcendental Non duality

      This article is related to a common misconception with regards to the Transcendental experience of Nonduality. Within the spiritual circle, the term Non-duality is a very misunderstood or misinterpreted term. It must be understood that the term has more than one meaning and its perceived meaning largely depends on a person's stage of spiritual awareness.

      More often than not, a lower stage understanding of the term is misconstrued as the Transcendental experience of Nonduality or non-dualism. This confusion is largely compounded by so-called new age spiritual materials.

      The most common understanding of Non duality is related to the issue of Polarity such as light and dark. In this semantic, non-duality is explained as the non-biasness towards any side of a pole. This is about the concept of there being no absolute good or evil. In another word, it is about being non-judgemental. Many spiritual materials believed that this concept of non-duality is equivalent to enlightenment. This is not entirely correct.

      Non-duality as a concept for no polarity is not wrong. However, it should not be mistaken for non-duality as the state of enlightenment. The term non-duality that is being used to describe Enlightenment is actually describing a state whereby there is no subject-object division. This is an experience that is difference from the concept of no absolute polarity.

      No subject-object division is the true nature of existence. The method of realising this insight lies in the dissolving of the 'sense of self'. This often involves the continual and correct letting go of mental grasping.

      OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.

      For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.
      Edited by An Eternal Now 24 Nov `07, 1:39PM
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      Originally posted by longchen:
      show
      Good stuff. Rememer to update here. Smile
    • Cog
      Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
      All of our forummer Longchen's articles (http://www.dreamdatum.com/articles-path.html) are of especially good quality and very well written especially that it's coming from a sincere practitioner willing to share his insights gained from his practice.
      ...
      Non-dual Conversation

      Is it possible for one to maintain non-dual while having a conversation with another person? This is something that I am learning to do. From my few experiences, yes it is possible. But it is quite a challenge. And at as of this writing, I am very unstable at this.
      Yes all 3 articles are well written. You should not overlook the the title “non dual conversation” and also realize the importance of those marked in bold.

      There is a difference between non-duality as experienced during sitting meditation and non-duality as a form of insight when sufficiently stabilized. As a form of insight (stabilized) the illusionary division of a subject-object dichotomy is thoroughly seen through and meditative state is carried beyond ‘sitting meditation’. The experience of pure presence is integrated naturally into walking, tasting, hearing and seeing in all arising phenomena without much effort (still not completely effortless).

      In due time, the experience and understanding can get so clear that the entire ‘conceptual layering’ disappears. Even if concepts were to arise, they cease to serve as conditioning threads to the experience of pure presence.

      However during ‘conversation’ and/or in engagement of certain activities where dualistic conditions are strong, even when non-dual experience is stabilized till the above case, a non-dualist will still find it "quite a challenge".
    • Cog
      Hi Longchen,

      Thanks for the article and just to share with u some of my experiences:


      1. No sense of talking to someone outside of oneself. All this is happening within the same space without subject-object division.
      Always so. Never was any experience not of non-dual. If meant only as an expression that non-dual state is always present, it is alright but if there is an intention to re-confirm subconsciously a non-dual state, then in my opinion, that 're-confirming' must be let go ultimately. The letting go will deepen the luminosity instead. That is my experience. Smile


      2. No sense of my body talking to another body. This has got to do with no sense of ownership of body. At this point, the sense of owning the physical body is absent. In addition to that, there is also no sense of the sound and sight of another body as being separated from all that is happening at the moment. This is different from no 'I' in the sense that it now encompasses 'no mine' or 'no ownership'.

      3. Because of the absence of self-others demarcation, conversation occurs without the usual mode of trying to get some kind of response, reaction or effect from the other party. At my current stage, I did notice a slight grasping that is being used to translate sound into meanings. This is unlike the total deconstruction that occurs with the 'powering down' of perception.
      I think this is a very important realization and the whole essence of having non-dual experience during conversation or engaging in activities and situations where conditions to create dualistic views are strong lies here -- in overcoming the bond of ‘mine’.

      I will relate it to the seeds of the 6th and 7th consciousness in Buddhism. In Buddhism, on top of the usual 5 senses, a 6th sense is added, that is, the conceptual mind. It is the habitual tendency of layering and naming that confuses a practitioner creating the subject-object split in terms of perception. Here the ‘condition’ for the arising of the split is mainly due to this ‘seed’ that resides in the 6th consciousness, that is, the conceptual overlay creating a ‘perceptual I’ (I referred to as the ‘bond’ of ‘I’) and overcoming this ‘bond’ of ‘I’ does not mean the overcoming of the bond of ‘mine’. The bond of ‘mine’ is a more subtle bond. A practitioner may continue to experience a strong ontological sense of ‘ITness’ and leave traces of the sense of self in holding to “Everything is Self’. At this stage, the sense of ‘ego’ can still remain strong.


      At this point, the sense of owning the physical body is absent
      ....
      At my current stage, I did notice a slight grasping that is being used to translate sound into meanings.
      Taking the above quote as an example, the symbolic meaning of a ‘body’ is created by the 6th consciousness (the bond of ‘I’) which is deconstructed during the first phase of non-dual insight but ‘owning the body’ belongs to the 7th consciousness (what I called the bond of ‘mine’) and is still strong. It often requires daily engagement in activities to allow the conditions to mirror the latent deep ‘ownership’. Here the ‘dual’ is between ‘ego’ and action/hostile environment. The separation is overcome by dissolving the ‘bond of mine’ where the 'agent' is being transcended into non-dual action. As for the grasping of 'sound into meanings', it relates more to the conceptual mind (6th consciousness).


      There is really no method of how this can be done. It is really a matter of discovering something and entering into the state without volition.
      The best solution to overcome this bond of 'mine' is insight into our emptiness nature. It is the “discovery of the something” that enables us to “enter into the state without volition” in the most natural and self liberated way.

      As an intermediate practice, one can sense any form of contraction that is manifested in the 5 aggregates. Sense all contractions that prevent totality and dropped them instantly but gently. There is no need to reason or find out why. Contractions are deeply embedded at the cell level due to a tightly held pre-conscious 'self'-preservation' seed. Release them. Any contraction that resulted in separation is a form of ‘self-preservation '.

      When stepping out, feel the full sensation of stepping out. The totality of sensation without contraction.…

      When breathing, feel the totality of the entire breathing without contraction…

      When engaging in thoughts or speeches that give rise to bodily contraction, Let go completely but gently as if the contraction is dying in its own accord without asking why. Do not feel bad when contraction arises, forget about the past and future, whatever mistakes done and whatever things that are left undone, just let go of these arising thoughts that resulted in contraction without justification and reason. Pure sensation of presence takes over all logical reasoning.

      Practice till there is a natural momentum that in any circumstances or situations, whenever and whereever the sense of contraction arises, it is dropped immediately and gently. When there is no contraction, there is no worry of separation. The momentum with the practice of dropping whenever contraction arises will dissolve the ‘bond of mine’. When this bond is sufficiently dissolved, even “everything is Self’ is deconstructed. Here 'Self' is transended into mere action or activity and one realises that the entire idea of ‘I’ and ‘mine’ is learnt, there is truly nothing to hold. Insight of emptiness may arise; there is no I, there is no mine, all is the mere play of dharma, arises when condition is, self-liberates in their own accord.

      This is also my practice before insight into the emptiness nature of phenomena. My 2 cents. Smile

      Edited by Thusness 17 Nov `07, 8:48AM
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      Hi Thusness,

      Thanks so much for the very detailed explanation. Appreciate it.

      regards Smile
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      Originally posted by longchen:
      show
      I like the article on "Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts? " too. Insightful. Smile
    • Cog

      Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts?

      This article is related to a common misconception with regards to spiritual practice. Many spiritual teachings say that one must get rid of unwholesome stuffs in one's life. So does that include getting rid of unwholesome thoughts that one is having.

      Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts? Before we can answer this question, we must first ask..."Can the self or 'I' get rid of thoughts that are deemed as unwholesome?"; The answer to the latter question is a NO.

      As already mentioned and explained here, the sense of self or 'I' is not the doer of action. As much as this 'sense of self' desires, it simply has no power over the arising and ceasing of thoughts. Thoughts, are for most part, related to the functioning of memory. Because of that, thoughts and memory cannot be removed by will.
      Hi Longchen,

      This is a wonderful article and it is also a bold assertion. I fully agree with what you said. The idea that there is a controller is an illusion. It is the result of deep conditioning that blinds us from seeing what exactly is ‘happening’ experientially.

      This truth must be experimented and challenged for insight to arise. Try with all our might; control and will the next moment of thought to arise as desired. Try to penetrate with all our power and will to know what the next moment of thought will be. Experiment until this truth is clearly understood as an experiential fact.


      So, if thoughts cannot be stopped from arising using volition, are we powerless with regards to its influences. No.
      I will re-phrase it to “if thoughts cannot be stopped from arising using volition, then what is its nature? How does it arise? Why does it arise?”

      There is no better way to phrase it then to borrow from the teachings of Buddha :-

      When there is this, that is.
      With the arising of this, that arises.
      When this is not, neither is that.
      With the cessation of this, that ceases.

      -- the principle of conditionality

      Understanding emptiness nature has profound implication to our practice. It reveals to us that our existing mode of practice as what you experienced and correctly put it, is not the right approach. We stop willing and controlling. Instead all moments are allowed to express themselves in their natural state, arising when condition is and subsides when condition ceases. Life is a whole oneness and pure presence is found in all moments and all states. There is no purer state. Practice is not about controlling or willing anything. It is allowing the pure presence to reveal itself in its manifolds. Emptiness and non-dual experience provide the insight that practice is neither aftering the mirror nor escaping from the maya reflection; it is to clearly 'see' the 'nature' of reflection. To see that there is really no mirror other than the ongoing reflection due to our emptiness nature. Neither is there a mirror to cling to as the background container nor a maya to escape from. Beyond these two extreme approaches lies the middle path -- the prajna wisdom of seeing that the maya is our Buddha nature.

      We then extend this understanding to events, situations, relationships and practices to prove the profundity of this wisdom. Using this insight to dissolve the 'I', 'mine', 'karmic propensities' and all knots of solidity and effort. When this is correctly understood with the insight of non-dual, it reveals the truth of self-liberation.

      Happy Journey!

      Edited by Thusness 17 Nov `07, 5:33PM
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      Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
      http://www.dreamdatum.com/nondual-misinfo.html

      [b]The misconceptions surrounding Transcendental Non duality


      This article is related to a common misconception with regards to the Transcendental experience of Nonduality. Within the spiritual circle, the term Non-duality is a very misunderstood or misinterpreted term. It must be understood that the term has more than one meaning and its perceived meaning largely depends on a person's stage of spiritual awareness.

      More often than not, a lower stage understanding of the term is misconstrued as the Transcendental experience of Nonduality or non-dualism. This confusion is largely compounded by so-called new age spiritual materials.

      The most common understanding of Non duality is related to the issue of Polarity such as light and dark. In this semantic, non-duality is explained as the non-biasness towards any side of a pole. This is about the concept of there being no absolute good or evil. In another word, it is about being non-judgemental. Many spiritual materials believed that this concept of non-duality is equivalent to enlightenment. This is not entirely correct.

      Non-duality as a concept for no polarity is not wrong. However, it should not be mistaken for non-duality as the state of enlightenment. The term non-duality that is being used to describe Enlightenment is actually describing a state whereby there is no subject-object division. This is an experience that is difference from the concept of no absolute polarity.

      No subject-object division is the true nature of existence. The method of realising this insight lies in the dissolving of the 'sense of self'. This often involves the continual and correct letting go of mental grasping.

      OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.

      For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.[/b]
      Agreed. We can say that the Nonduality of Subject and Object is related to other forms of nonduality, yet other forms of nonduality may not necessary bring out the essence of the Nonduality of Subject and Object, which is the fundamental kind of insights known as "enlightenment".

      David Loy wrote in 'Nonduality' (highly recommended book on nondual concept), first chapter, which is called 'How many nondualities are there?'

      In it, it distinguished 5 kinds of nonduality.

      No concept is more important in Asian philosophical and religious thought than nonduality (Sanskrit advaya and advaita, Tibetan gNismed, Chinese pu-erh, Japanese fu-ni), and none is more ambiguous. The term has been used in many different although related ways, and to my knowledge the distinction between these meanings have never been fully clarified. These meanings are distinct, although they often overlap in particular instances....

      ...The following types of nonduality are discussed here: the negation of dualistic thinking, the nonplurality of the world, and the nondifference of subject and object. In subsequent chapters, our attention focuses primarily on the last of these three, although there will also be occasion to consider two other nondualities which are also closely related: first, what has been called the identity of phenomena and Absolute, or the Mahayana equation of samsara and nirvana, which can also be expressed as "the nonduality of duality and nonduality"; second, the possibility of a mystical unity between God and man. No doubt other nondualities can be distinguished, but most of them can be subsumed under one or more of the above categories....


      A very short summary:

      Dualistic thinking here, means thinking in terms of good and bad, right and wrong, purity and impurity, being and non-being, black and white and so on.

      "Without relation to "good there is no "bad," in dependence on which we form the idea of "Good." Therefore "good" is unintelligible. There is no "good" unrelated to "bad"; yet we form our idea of "bad" in dependence on it. There is therefore no "bad." (Nagarjuna)

      The second nonduality, the nonplurality of the world, is that

      ...due to the superimpositions of dualistic thinking that we experience the world itself dualistically in our second sense: as a collection of discrete objects (one of them being me) causally interacting in space and time. The negation of dualistic thinking leads to the negation of this way of experiencing the world. This brings us to the second sense of nonduality: that the world itself is nonplural, because all things "in" the world are not really distinct from each other but together constitute some integral whole. The relation between these two senses of nonduality is shown by Huang Po at the very beginning of his Chun Chou record:

      All Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This mind, which is without beginning, is unborn and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong to the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought about in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces, and comparisons. It is that which you see before you -- begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error.

      This asserts more than that everything is composed of some indefinable substance. The unity of everything "in" the world means that each thing is a manifestation of a "spiritual" whole because the One Mind incorporates all consciousness and all minds. This whole -- indivisible, birthless, and deathless -- has been designated by a variety of terms, as all as the One Mind, there are the Tao, Brahman, the Dharmakaya, and so on.
      The third nonduality, is the nonduality of subject and object.

      We have seen the connection between the first two dualities: it is because of our dualistic ways of thinking that we perceive the world pluralistically. The relationship between the corresponding nondualities is parallel: the world as a collection of discrete things (including me) in space and time is not something objectively given, which we merely observe passively; if our ways of thinking change, that world also changes for us. But there is still something lacking in this formulation. By itself it is incomplete, for it leaves unclarified the relation between the subject and the nondual world that the subject experiences. It was stated earlier that the nondual whole is "spiritual" because the One Mind includes my mind, but How consciousness could be incorporated has not been explained. The world is not really experienced as a whole if the subject that perceives it is still separate from it and its observation Of it. In this way the second sense of nonduality, conceived objectively, is unstable and naturally tends to evolve into a third sense. This third sense, like the other two, must be understood as a negation. The dualism denied is our usual distinction between subject and object, an experiencing self that is distinct from what is experienced, be it sense-object, physical action, or mental event. The corresponding nonduality is experience in which there is no such distinction between subject and object. However extraordinary and counterintuitive such nonduality may be, it is an essential element of many Asian systems (and some Western ones, of course). Since the primary purpose of this world is to analyze this third sense of nonduality, it is necessary to establish in detail the prevalence and significance of this concept....

      ------

      I came to realize clearly that mind is no other than mountains, rivers, and the great wide earth, the sun and the moon and the stars. ~ Dogen
      Edited by An Eternal Now 24 Nov `07, 1:39PM
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      Originally posted by longchen:
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      Hi Longchen,

      Whatever the practice whether it is by way of directly sensing contraction or by insight into our emptiness nature or by boddhisattva practice of parimatas, one must ultimately give up the sense of self entirely. The sensation of the overcoming the bond of 'mine' is like mere crytal clear happening as if 'you' never existed. We must be completely fearless during meditation in giving up 'ownership' of our body, mind even that 'concious' portion. Experience that 'fearlessness' and 'openness' and be willing to let go of whatever holdings during meditation. Then nothing else matter and nothing can imobilize the flow. In silence, there is mere manifestation and in acting, there is mere action/activity. It is a very important experience but requires stability of non-dual insight to a certain degree otherwise there is no true giving up; even if there is, the giving up will end being a trance instead of pure presence.

      Edited by Thusness 19 Nov `07, 10:49PM
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      Originally posted by Thusness:


      Hi Longchen,

      Whatever the practice whether it is by way of directly sensing contraction or by insight into our emptiness nature or by boddhisattva practice of parimatas, one must ultimately give up the sense of self entirely. The sensation of the overcoming the bond of 'mine' is like [b]mere crytal clear happening as if 'you' never existed.
      We must be completely fearless during meditation in giving up 'ownership' of our body, mind even that 'concious' portion. Experience that 'fearlessness' and 'openness' and be willing to let go of whatever holdings during meditation. Then nothing else matter and nothing can imobilize the flow. In silence, there is mere manifestation and in acting, there is mere action/activity. It is a very important experience but requires stability of non-dual insight to a certain degree otherwise there is no true giving up; even if there is, the giving up will end being a trance instead of pure presence.

      [/b]
      Hi Thusness,

      Thanks for this. Smile
-----------------------------
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
It depends
.
.
.
Hi AEN,

From what you wrote, I can see the clarity of your understanding on the concept of non-duality and emptiness. Obviously the AEN now is no more the AEN I knew in IRC few years back. Mr. Green

Sincerely that is the level of understanding I hope you can have and with your current understanding, you will not be easily swayed by false claims and understandings. I am happy for you.

Next you should also leverage on your existing understanding to realize the power of the ‘bond’. If reality is what you understood, why is the sound out there? Do not explain yourself away. Do not define by replacing your mind with strings of words. If you react this way, you merely touch the ‘surface’. Learn to feel and sense deeply without explaining anything. Be sincere, direct and intuitive.

Hear the sound, it is out there.
So clearly it is out there.
Feel it. The sound is really out there.
Do not explain but deeply feel this ‘bond’. How it blinded you.
Feel the full power of the ‘bond’ so that you understand how ‘bonds’ can create such amazing distortion of experience that is non-dual in nature.
If you can feel it, you will never dare to underestimate the power of propensity.
If you feel it, you can then practice with greater sincerity and insight.

Practice hard to authenticate you understood. Smile


------------
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    • Hi AEN,

      Sometimes the way you presented your posts may be wrongly perceived as challenges to one’s insight. I know it is hardly your intention but the reader may take it otherwise. An example will be the 6 stages of the experiences I undergone, do not make it sound authentic and never to mistake it as a form of achievement. Simply treat it as a casual sharing with ‘JonLS’ when condition arose and nothing more than that. At most as a form of reference to help you orientate your perspectives when reading others’ experiences. Completely unnecessary to overemphasize anything.

      With regards to your posts in this thread, in my opinion you are careful in what you wrote and as a whole the essence is there. To express non-duality and emptiness is a laborious undertaking; it is great effort and quite an achievement. Smile

      That said, I must also admit that it can sound extremely confusing to some. The posts that you made are like passages full of mathematical symbols; jargons are found everywhere and some of the words used denote very different meanings from ordinary usages. It is a challenge to grasp what you are trying to convey. Not to forget that over the years, you have drilled yourself very hard trying to understand some tough questions like the meaning of propensities and how they blind us from experiencing non-duality; how a world that is pre-symbolic like and what are the implications of being bare in attention; what do non-duality and dependent origination mean and their relationships…

      I think all these are very important questions. They serve as foundation for your gradual understanding of the role of emptiness in non-dual experience and later to the eventual understanding of self-liberation. The hard works are well compensated and I am no age-biased. Mr. Green Frankly it is unwise to discredit your 'new found insight' though personally I still find it very much conceptual. What that is needed now for you is to complement your understandings (conceptual) with actual practices and make these understandings into direct and intuitive insights. Smile
      Edited by Thusness 27 Nov `07, 1:27AM
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    • Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
      Thusness wrote something to illustrate to illustrate the argument between me an AndrewPKYap.

      Someone bought 2 adjacent units of condominium and hacked down the dividing wall to make it into one. However due to certain condominium management policies, he is unable to change external appearances of the units. A friend of the owner knew about it but this friend has no access to the house. One day this friend is arguing with a passerby that the two units are really one house.

      He told the passerby that it is only in appearance that the house looks as if it is two different units but in essence it is one. The passerby refuted back that if it is to be treated as one unit, then it should have only one unit number even in the eyes of the law, it should be treated as two separate units.

      He told the passerby that it is only in appearance that the house looks as if it is two different units but in essence it is one. The passerby refuted back that if it is to be treated as one unit, then it should have only one unit number even in the eyes of the law, it should be treated as two separate units.

      Laughing

      He also said that most forummers won't understand my postings because the posts were wrote based on the pre-assumption that the reader already know the concept of non-dual and emptiness pretty well. Without clarity in the concept of non-dual aka without a background and emptiness, one will not be able to understand what is written.

      So, v sorry if anyone in this forum happens to find this discussion confusing. I believe if I were to read this a year ago or more, I wouldn't understand fully what I'm writing either. It's best to stick in the basics and practice from there. Smile Knowing the conditions for understanding is important.
      Posted b4 I post. Razz
      From an outsider's perspective, doesn't look healthy. Just my opinion. Smile
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    • Originally posted by Isis:
      Quote from long chen:
      Hi

      Don't mind...

      can elaborate on what do u mean images may or may not appear but the mind more often than not filters before the 'seeing' ?

      Interested to know the mechancism of the mind here. Mr. Green
      Nothing intense Isis. You should take it just to mean that the mind explains away what that is presented before it is understood by way of mere reflection. Actually many images surfaced but are filtered or explain away very rapidly. To the conscious mind, some of these images never even existed. The mind is not even aware of their existence. Nothing more than that. Smile
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    • Originally posted by longchen:
      Wow! Another wonderful post by Thusness.

      Thusness, you wrote it so clearly Mr. Green

      Thanks for the sharing.
      Hehe…Ur articles are full of sincerities and have given ‘yuan’ for me to reflect my understandings. The benefits are reciprocated -- one body, one manifestation.

      How amazing is this ‘bond of I and mine’ that separates. The reason why awareness is separated from conditions of arising is the same reason why a finger is separated from our head. Allow a worldview contaminated by subject-object dualism (learnt) to dissolve and see the world of emptiness and self-liberation as it is. No ‘I’ and ‘No Mine’ turns the dharma wheel. All conditions, all arising is self-clearing and marvelously perfect but imperfectly treated by the illusionary view of ‘I’ and “Mine’. Mr. Green From my point of view, every condition, every arising, everywhere and every moment, the arising are dharma voices, the entire process is chanting in action – Maha! Unborn, Uncreated, Unending, Great and Marvelous!

      Seriously look into 'Emptiness'. For a non-dualist, it will be experienced as self-liberating. It doesn't matter whether one is a Buddhist or free thinker, simply incorporate this great teaching into our daily lives.

      Homage to Buddha. Smile
      Edited by Thusness 25 Nov `07, 12:23PM
  • Moderator
    Thusness's Avatar
    581 posts since Dec '04
    Cog
    • Originally posted by longchen:
      Just my opinion,

      If one want to really clear karma, there is no easy way out. Must pass through some difficult period of time. Karma is habituated energy... can be mental, physical or emotional.

      In fact, the whole need to fix things is a karmic grasping.
      Yes!


      For karma resolution, one does not really need to see what happened in the past life in order to be healed.
      Yes and what prevents the seeing? Images may or may not appear but the mind more often than not filters before the ‘seeing’. Smile


      One is however required to be very 'attentive' to whatever sensations and reactions that arises. By allowing these sensations and feeling to arise and not habitually block them with fear and mental denial, we may actually discover new ways of viewing/experiencing a condition that allow for karmic release.

      It is important to know how to just let whatever that arises to be just that and not allowing chains of thoughts to mess up the situation.
      Truly so! You may want to see ‘clearing’ from another perspective.
      Since there is merely letting whatever arises to subside on their own accord with luminous clarity, it is not so much of 'clearing' of karmic propensities. It is rather a ‘non-re-enforcing' process. Ignorance unknowingly deepens the tendencies due to dualistic action.

      I used to find this a great challenge because the sense of self never fails to arise during challenging conditions but that is perfectly fine now. Smile However one must know the exact reason why it is fine and the mechanism of how karmic tendencies works. This knowing of 'exact reason' is not a form of rational deduction but rather a form of reflection due to clarity of the process when there is non-interference.

      If it doesn’t arise, it is not cleared. The very arising is itself a clearing process; otherwise with a ‘seed’ latent and without condition for it to arise, how is it cleared? Therefore one must turn ‘conditions’ to practice. Mr. Green


      Also the inherent compassion that is within us can soften some unpleasantness and aid in the resolution.

      Also, conventionally, because the body can be subjectable to harm. Sometimes, there may be a need to response in a way that get the body out of harm's way. So, it is not just a case of 'all is illusion' that leads to the disregard of the physical condition. No doubt at another level, 'body is not mine' but compassion nevertheless necessitate a skillful response in the conventional sense.
      Pure presence cannot be understood apart from conditions. Not only physical conditions but to all conditions including mental, social, economical, political and spiritual, not to mention business conditions Mr. Green. Still the mirror sensation void of a center must be experienced as clear as possible in all circumstances. That is the whole purpose of having insight into emptiness -- seeing spaciousness for every arising condition. While non-dual experience dissolves the Subject-Object split, emptiness nature dissolves the Presence-Conditions split.

      Just a sharing. Smile

      --------------------------------------

http://www.awakeningtothedream.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?p=34050&highlight=#34050

The "Ego"

PasserBy


PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:00 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote


michael wrote:
epi wrote:
The ego is simply 'Lack of Space'


at first it appears "I am this body/mind"... 'squeezed' into a tiny bit of 'space-time'...

then it may appear "I am this whole experience"... this flowing ever changing 'moment'... that fills all space... as seen from a specific perspective... at a specific ever changing 'point' in time' and 'space'...

then it may appear that "I am all this that is conceived... ever unchanging... and the instantaneous appearance/experience of it from a unique perspective each apparent moment"...

beyond appearances... "I am"... is meaningless...

Love


and

When the need for ‘meaning’ dissolves,
The urge to fuse appearances and “I Am” also subsides.

Thanks for sharing.

PasserBy Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:29 am    Post subject:
ANNA wrote:
PasserBy wrote:
and

When the need for ‘meaning’ dissolves,
The urge to fuse appearances and “I Am” also subsides.

Thanks for sharing.



yes.....
Very Happy





just Beingness.

Beingness is always here.

Breathing in.

Breathing out.

Just to sit quietly - for its own sake.


The entire universe is just this breath.
Simply so.
Maha! Great and miraculous!
Smile

PasserBy
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote


empty-and-full wrote:
PasserBy wrote:
michael wrote:
epi wrote:
The ego is simply 'Lack of Space'


at first it appears "I am this body/mind"... 'squeezed' into a tiny bit of 'space-time'...

then it may appear "I am this whole experience"... this flowing ever changing 'moment'... that fills all space... as seen from a specific perspective... at a specific ever changing 'point' in time' and 'space'...

then it may appear that "I am all this that is conceived... ever unchanging... and the instantaneous appearance/experience of it from a unique perspective each apparent moment"...

beyond appearances... "I am"... is meaningless...

Love


and

When the need for ‘meaning’ dissolves,
The urge to fuse appearances and “I Am” also subsides.

Thanks for sharing.


I guess "I" am never going to get there.
Razz

Yes and beautifully expressed. 'No one' gets there.
Mr. Green


PasserBy
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:12 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote


Ocean or wave, do not take away my credit. I am the wind that does not differentiate. I know you through your intrinsicness in all movements caused by me. You have never been separated from me since beginlessness of time and I will never cease to be. Smile

PasserBy
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:54 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote


empty-and-full wrote:



Welcome aboard Passerby,

So glad to see you here.

Enjoy the boards, there's a good bunch of people here. (I think!)
weint_vor_lachen


Thank you empty-and-full.
or
Mere appearances arising and ceasing naturally from authentic conditions.
weint_vor_lachen

PasserBy
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:31 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote


empty-and-full wrote:
Quote:
Mere appearances arising and ceasing naturally from authentic conditions


I don't know what the authentic conditions are, but overall, it sounds good to me.
Mr. Green


hehe...Buddhist's term refering to all 'winds' or contributing factors that make appearances appears so. There is no purest state, all arising states are equally pure, complete and do not remain. The prisitne awareness and the 'winds' are inseparable.
Razz


PasserBy  
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Volition....


epi wrote:
It stands to reason (physiologically) that 'volition'

is still for the most part an 'involuntary' biological function of the human.

Nearly all of the human machine behaves mechanically and involuntarily.
Example:Sight,smell,etc are involuntary functions.

Its in our nature to gravitate to pleasure
and avoid pain. ...its an issue of energy and balance.

Everyone instictivly knows to come in out of the rain.

(Volition is not a true choice then ?....correct?)


Hi epi,

The idea of a subject acting upon an object is a logical deduction and the whole idea of 'I' and 'mine' is learnt. Because our mind is so molded to think in terms of subject-object dichotomy, effortlessness and liberating experience of spontaneous arising more often than not are misperceived as 'mechanical and involuntary'.

We should also not to mistaken that with the quantum leap in perception and intuitive experience that there is no separate ‘I’, the bond of ‘mine’ will naturally subsides. That is another logical deduction which is far from truth in terms of actual experience. The bond of ‘mine’ is far more subtle.
Mr. Green

My 2 cents.
Smile
PasserBy Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:16 pm    Post subject:


Aurora wrote:

"Everybody understands the single drop
merging into the ocean.
One in a million understands the ocean
merging into a single drop"

Kabir

Laughing


If 'all others' in between 'the single drop' and 'ocean' are included, u can also take out the word 'merge'...
Mr. Green

PasserBy
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:43 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote


empty-and-full wrote:
Quote:
We should also not to mistaken that with the quantum leap in perception and intuitive experience that there is no separate ‘I’, the bond of ‘mine’ will naturally subsides.


Well said Passerby,

It's interesting that only people who have experienced this will know what you are talking about.

I like this expression "the quantum leap in perception". Without this new perception, this new paradigm, there would still be total involvement with thoughts and beliefs.


There is another bad habit even after the leap, that is, we continue to use concepts to 'grasp' the pristineness of our nature. Nothing wrong with conceptuality really, just that it is the wrong tool for this purpose!
Razz

Concepts complicate matter; simplicity comes from sensing with our entire being directly.
Mr. Green

PasserBy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:06 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote


michael wrote:
PasserBy wrote:
empty-and-full wrote:
Quote:
We should also not to mistaken that with the quantum leap in perception and intuitive experience that there is no separate ‘I’, the bond of ‘mine’ will naturally subsides.


Well said Passerby,

It's interesting that only people who have experienced this will know what you are talking about.

I like this expression "the quantum leap in perception". Without this new perception, this new paradigm, there would still be total involvement with thoughts and beliefs.


There is another bad habit even after the leap, that is, we continue to use concepts to 'grasp' the pristineness of our nature. Nothing wrong with conceptuality really, just that it is the wrong tool for this purpose!
Razz

Concepts complicate matter; simplicity comes from sensing with our entire being directly.
Mr. Green


whether apparent as 'objects'... or 'words'... it is all the same 'conception'...

the wonder full 'complication'... known with 'entire being'...

this knowing/known... this 'simplicity'... that cannot be sensed... or known...

only this fleeting image is sensed... and known...

as 'phenomena'... appearing and disappearing...

inseparable from...

this 'ineffable changeless'... that neither appears... nor... disappears...

unsensable... unknowable...

to 'awareness' (this sensing and knowing) 'it' is 'non-existent'... for 'it' cannot be sensed or known...

only its image appears...

'it'... is this sensing/sensations and knowing/known...

'awaring'...

One...

Love


Indeed. Most clear and true!
Therefore seek not the mirror but see the nature of reflection.
Reflection alone is, no mirror reflecting.
The one hand claps, everything is.
Thanks for sharing.
Smile

PasserBy PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:18 am    Post subject:


toombaru wrote:
toombaru wrote:
gretta wrote:
PasserBy wrote:
Aurora wrote:

"Everybody understands the single drop
merging into the ocean.
One in a million understands the ocean
merging into a single drop"

Kabir

Laughing


If 'all others' in between 'the single drop' and 'ocean' are included, u can also take out the word 'merge'...
Mr. Green




heard of the 'adviata couple who fell in love' …apparently 'merged' ….'after a chants meeting'?





Objects are attracted to each other's center.


Life is engulfed in its own gravitational attraction.......Everything is drawn to everything's center.



toombaru





No longer am I content to simply hug and hold.

Now....it is nakedness I seek........skin to skin..........

........centers swirling......remembering.......who they always are.






toombaru

Already thoroughly bare and naked.
Don't cover it!

Embarassed


PasserBy PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:24 am    Post subject:

awakening wrote:

It does not have to be labeled as grasping
-although it may-
as such labeling could be seen as
simply an 'other' expression
of THAT which 'knows' no other.




Profoundly true. Thanks for sharing.
Smile

PasserBy Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject:


empty-and-full wrote:
Quote:
Concepts complicate matter; simplicity comes from sensing with our entire being directly. Mr. Green


Yes, true surrender.

Just be.
Razz


Thanks for introducing me to this wonderful site. I learn a lot here!
Getting ready for a trip to Japan.
Mr. GreenTake good care of urself! Good luck!
Gone!
Smile

http://www.awakeningtothedream.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?p=34104&highlight=#34104


Quote
PasserBy Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:39 pm    Post subject:


michael wrote:

good... though as to the 'articulation'... that remains to be seen...
Very Happy

all sensations are the same as colour... they are 'qualia'... irreducible... they cannot be verified by anyone but the 'subject'...

who... according to science... is the 'sensing/sensations' that arise in the instant....

together...

seeing inseparable from colour
hearing inseparable from sound
tasting inseparable from flavour
smelling inseparable from odour
feeling inseparable from feelings

is 'awareness'...

according to science... this 'witness witnessing' is a function of 'brain activity'... arising in a moment... and in a moment gone... as 'brain activity' is altered... in 'deep sleep' for example... or if the brain is damaged... or upon death of the brain...

is there anything missing from this description of 'awareness'... as proposed by science?

Love

Hi Michael, wonderful post. Enjoyed very much the detail explanation!

Awareness is,

When condition is, that is.
No who, no when, no where.
Non dual and non local!

However, in my opinion, it is needless to posit 'isness' as a figment of the 'Infinite known' and reduced the 'newness' of 'isness' into an 'already is'. Rather rest in the magic of arising. The former being conceptual and the later, spriitual.

Just my 2 cents.
Smile

PasserBy
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:09 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote


Kali wrote:
gretta wrote:
jeff j wrote:
gretta wrote:
'This' as apparent 'thinking'

'This' as apparent 'meditation'

'This' as apparent 'war'

'This' as apparent 'confusion'

'This' as apparent 'silence'


'changelessness'….

'suchness'




'mmmmmmmmmmm'

'This' as 'nosuchsuchness' '
Laughing'


'all' 'Presence'







ahhh* 'Love'








*ahhhhhhhhhh no quotes apparently '
Shocked'


'This' as apparent 'thinking'

'This' as apparent 'meditation'

'This' as apparent 'war'

'This' as apparent 'confusion'

'This' as apparent 'silence'


maybe a new term sums it all up:
Very Happy
Thisasapparent



simply going just with the ahhhhhhhhhhhh
CoolVery Happy


strange, for me, it is not so much the ahhhhhhhhh....but more the realization of its inherent simplicity...it has been very simple all the way..but "I" had failed to realize it sooner....


what is being experienced, now, is the impersonality of all that is happening...

Kali


Mere happening alone is. The 'I' is extra.




michael wrote:


yes dear One...

and even as the thought apparently arises...
Very Happy

Just This...

Self-arising
Self-shining...

Love

awakening wrote:

Certainly Michael,
thought is as much included
in this
Self-arising
Self-shining
ISness...
as all other appearances.

The intention of the post
was to 'experientially establish'
that this 'me'
is more of a thought
than an independent entity.

Whether thought continues or stops....

Still...
This
Self-arising
Self-shining
ISness...

Just no 'me'
to which it all pertains.



There is no this that is more this than that.
Although thought arises and ceases vividly,
Every arising and ceasing remains as entire as it can be.

The emptiness nature
That is ever manifesting presently
Has not in anyway denied its own luminosity.

Although non-dual is seen with clarity,
The urge to remain can still blind subtly.
Like a passerby that passes, is gone completely.
Die utterly
And bear witness of this pure presence
Its non-locality.

PasserBy Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:42 am    Post subject:

awakening wrote:
PasserBy wrote:
michael wrote:


yes dear One...

and even as the thought apparently arises...
Very Happy

Just This...

Self-arising
Self-shining...

Love

awakening wrote:

Certainly Michael,
thought is as much included
in this
Self-arising
Self-shining
ISness...
as all other appearances.

The intention of the post
was to 'experientially establish'
that this 'me'
is more of a thought
than an independent entity.

Whether thought continues or stops....

Still...
This
Self-arising
Self-shining
ISness...

Just no 'me'
to which it all pertains.



There is no this that is more this than that.



Hi PB
Just curious..
Is this an affirmation of the above
or is there anything in those 2 quotes
that gives the idea of
there being a this which is more this than that?


Hi Awakening,

Just a reflection on the preference of ‘self-arising and self shining’ nature.

Many times with all our will and effort, we are unable to get our mind to rest; but when we are completely exhausted, the 'let go' is effortless and we rest naturally. Nothing pessimistic but ‘total cessation’ can be an important condition for the arising of effortless luminosity. At times we may unknowingly miss the valuable message that ‘Great Cessation’ carries.

Just my 2 cents. Nothing intense.
Smile
PasserBy Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:47 am    Post subject:



michael wrote:
PasserBy wrote:
michael wrote:
http://solacetemple.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/nomeinbetween.jpg


yes dear One...

and even as the thought apparently arises...
Very Happy

Just This...

Self-arising
Self-shining...

Love

awakening wrote:

Certainly Michael,
thought is as much included
in this
Self-arising
Self-shining
ISness...
as all other appearances.

The intention of the post
was to 'experientially establish'
that this 'me'
is more of a thought
than an independent entity.

Whether thought continues or stops....

Still...
This
Self-arising
Self-shining
ISness...

Just no 'me'
to which it all pertains.



There is no this that is more this than that.
Although thought arises and ceases vividly,
Every arising and ceasing remains as entire as it can be.

The emptiness nature
That is ever manifesting presently
Has not in anyway denied its own luminosity.

Although non-dual is seen with clarity,
The urge to remain can still blind subtly.
Like a passerby that passes, is gone completely.
Die utterly
And bear witness of this pure presence
Its non-locality.


and yet... that which seems to die... is already dead...

Love


and 'that which seems to die' or 'already dead'

is still

just as it is.

Thanks for sharing.
Smile

PasserBy
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote


aquarius wrote:
[Quote PB]The emptiness nature
That is ever manifesting presently
Has not in anyway denied its own luminosity.





Very Happy

Zen-ly expressed!
Mr. Green